I never liked Lumo, but out of curiosity (or because of the cat mascot), I happen to ask it something or other once in a while. Recently, it gave me some decent cooking advice, but this time, when asked about an elementary legal issue, it borked it severely. And it kept insisting in its idiocy.

Now, if Lumo were your lawyer “before the facts,” it would tell you not to do what you legally can do. Fair enough if you want to stay on the safe side. But as a defense attorney, it would act as a prosecutor, asking the judge or the jury to put you in jail for no good reason!

You see, it failed to understand what “age of consent” really means. 50 years ago, I read the 1968 Criminal Code of the Socialist Republic of Romania, and I learned a few simple things, such as the following one. The age of consent was 14 at the time (Art. 197-199), and consenting sexual activity by an adult with a person between the ages of 14 and 18 was to be punished only if one of the following conditions was met: the adult was the minor’s tutor, supervisor, caregiver, attending physician, teacher or educator, and using their capacity (the authority position argument); seduction was involved (specifically, promises of marriage). In the case of seduction, reconciliation of the parties removes criminal liability.

On the other hand, the 1953 Family Code (updated in 1974) said that, unlike males, females could marry from the age of 16, not 18. “For good reasons,” a woman could however marry at the age of 15, if an exemption to this effect was granted to her.

OK, so here’s a stupid thing I came to read: Tyson Fury responds to critics of his 16-year-old daughter Venezuela’s engagement to her boxer boyfriend. I actually read a Romanian translation that added this piece of information:

The Fury family lives in Great Britain, where the legal age for marriage is 18 years.
Until then, not even parental consent or court approval can allow a person under 18 to marry.

I wanted to check that last piece of information and, thinking it would be more than trivial, I decided to ask Lumo a couple of questions.

I wish I hadn’t.

Since Lumo’s conversations cannot be shared, here’s a copy of the entire saga:

❶ Ludditus:
1. Age of consent in UK.
2. Romeo and Juliet exceptions.
3. Legal age of marriage in UK. Are there exceptions to bring it under 18?

🟣 Lumo: UK – Age of consent, “Romeo & Juliet” provisions, and marriage‑age rules

  • Age of consent: 16 years old across England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Anyone ≤ 15 is legally unable to consent to sexual activity, and such conduct can lead to prosecution for statutory rape.
  • “Romeo & Juliet” (close‑in‑age) exemptions: The UK does not have a statutory “Romeo & Juliet” clause. There is no legal provision that reduces liability when two young people who are close in age engage in consensual sex. The law treats any sexual activity with a person ≤ 15 as an offence, regardless of the partner’s age.
  • Legal age of marriage: Since the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Minimum Age) Act 2022 came into force (27 Feb 2023), the minimum age to marry or enter a civil partnership in England and Wales is 18, even with parental consent. The same rule applies in Scotland (the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Act 2022) and in Northern Ireland. There are no exceptions that allow anyone under 18 to marry, whether by parental consent, court order or religious ceremony www.gov.uk.

Bottom line:

  • Age of consent = 16; no close‑in‑age defence.
  • Minimum marriage age = 18; the 2022 legislation removed all under‑18 marriage allowances.

❷ Ludditus: Other countries (say, France) have a “Romeo & Juliet” clause, so that a 15 y.o. can have sex with a 17 y.o. This is to acknowledge that SUCH THINGS HAPPEN and always have happened.

🟣 Lumo: France – Close‑in‑age (“Romeo & Juliet”) rule

  • Statutory age of consent: 15 years old (the “age of majority” for sexual activity). Anyone ≥ 15 can legally consent to sexual relations, provided there is no abuse of authority or exploitation.
  • Close‑in‑age exemption: French law includes a “close‑in‑age” provision that protects consensual relationships when the age gap is modest. Specifically, if the older partner is no more than five years older than the younger partner and the younger person is at least 15, the act is not punishable as statutory rape. This means a 15‑year‑old can legally have consensual sex with someone up to 20 years old, and a 17‑year‑old can do so with a partner up to 22, without the older party facing criminal liability.
  • Limits & safeguards:
    • The exemption does not apply if the older person holds a position of trust, authority, or influence over the younger (e.g., teacher, coach, caregiver). In such cases, the age‑gap protection is removed and the older party can be prosecuted.
    • The law also retains offences for exploitative or coercive conduct, even within the permitted age range.
  • Rationale: French legislators introduced the close‑in‑age rule to recognize that adolescents often form consensual relationships with peers who are slightly older, and to avoid criminalising normal teenage behaviour while still protecting minors from predatory adults.

How this compares with the UK

JurisdictionAge of consentClose‑in‑age exemptionMaximum age gap protected
UK (England, Wales, Scotland, NI)16None – no “Romeo & Juliet” clauseN/A
France15Yes – “close‑in‑age” ruleUp to 5 years older (provided the younger is ≥ 15)

So, unlike the UK, France does have a statutory mechanism that acknowledges and protects consensual relationships between teenagers who are close in age, allowing a 15‑year‑old to be with a 17‑year‑old (or up to a 20‑year‑old) without criminal liability, provided no abuse of authority is involved.

❸ Ludditus: Sorry, but if the age of consent is 15 in France, any 15 y.o. can have sex even with a 40 y.o. The “Romeo & Juliet” clause says that if a person is 14 or 13 y.o., they can have sex with a “close‑in‑age” person.

🟣 Lumo: Clarifying French sexual‑age rules

  1. Statutory age of consent = 15 years
    • A person who is 15 or older can legally give consent to sexual activity provided the other party is not in a position of authority or influence over them (teacher, coach, caregiver, etc.).
  2. Close‑in‑age (“Romeo & Juliet”) protection
    • The French Penal Code (art. 227‑25) contains a “close‑in‑age” exemption that limits criminal liability only when the age gap is modest.
    • The exemption applies when the older partner is no more than five years older than the younger partner and the younger partner is at least 15.
    • Example: a 15‑year‑old may have consensual sex with someone up to 20 years old; a 17‑year‑old may do so with someone up to 22.
  3. What the law does not allow
    • The exemption does not mean a 15‑year‑old can freely consent to sex with a 40‑year‑old. Such a large age gap falls far outside the five‑year limit and would be prosecuted as rape or sexual assault.
    • Even within the five‑year window, the exemption is void if the older person holds a position of trust, authority, or influence over the younger (teacher, trainer, religious leader, etc.). In those circumstances the older party can be charged regardless of the age gap.
  4. Under‑15 minors
    • For anyone under 15, French law treats any sexual activity as a crime (sexual assault on a minor). There is no close‑in‑age provision that lowers the threshold for 13‑ or 14‑year‑olds.
  5. Why the distinction matters
    • The close‑in‑age rule is intended to recognise normal adolescent relationships while still protecting minors from exploitation by significantly older adults. It deliberately caps the permissible age difference and adds safeguards against abuse of authority.

Bottom line

  • 15 + = can consent, but only with partners ≤ 5 years older (unless a power‑imbalance exists).
  • 15 + with a 40‑year‑old = illegal, prosecutable as rape/sexual assault.
  • Under 15 = no consent at all; any sexual act is a criminal offense.

Thus, the French “Romeo & Juliet” clause does not permit a 15‑year‑old to have sex with a 40‑year‑old, nor does it extend any special allowance to 13‑ or 14‑year‑olds. It merely narrows the gap for consensual teen‑to‑teen relationships while preserving strong protections against adult exploitation.

❹ Ludditus: THE AGE OF CONSENT MEANS THAT AT THAT AGE SOMEONE CAN HAVE SEX WITH ANY ADULT REGARDLESS OF AGE!

🟣 Lumo: What “age of consent” actually means

The age‑of‑consent figure is the minimum age at which a person is legally recognized as capable of giving informed, voluntary consent to sexual activity. It does not give a blanket permission for anyone of that age to have sex with any adult, regardless of how large the age gap is. Here are the key points most jurisdictions—including the UK and France—take into account:

  1. Minimum age threshold
    • Below the age‑of‑consent, any sexual activity is automatically unlawful (e.g., a 15‑year‑old in the UK, a 15‑year‑old in France).
    • At or above the threshold, a person is presumed capable of consenting provided other conditions are met.
  2. Position‑of‑trust / authority rules
    • Even when the younger party is at the age‑of‑consent, it is illegal for someone who holds a position of authority (teacher, coach, caregiver, religious leader, etc.) to engage in sexual activity with them. Those statutes exist to prevent exploitation.
  3. Close‑in‑age (“Romeo & Juliet”) provisions
    • Some countries (e.g., France) add a limited exemption for partners who are close in age—typically a maximum gap of five years when the younger person is at least the age of consent.
    • This exemption does not apply to large age differences; a 15‑year‑old cannot legally have sex with a 40‑year‑old in France, nor in the UK, because the gap far exceeds the allowed range.
  4. Large age‑gap prohibitions
    • Many jurisdictions retain separate offenses (often called “statutory rape” or “sexual assault”) that cover situations where an adult substantially older than the younger partner engages in sexual activity, even if the younger partner has reached the age of consent.
    • The rationale is that a very large age disparity can create a power imbalance and increase the risk of exploitation.
  5. Country‑specific examples
    • United Kingdom: Age of consent = 16. No statutory “Romeo & Juliet” clause. An adult who is significantly older than a 16‑year‑old can still be prosecuted if the relationship is deemed exploitative or if the adult is in a position of trust.
    • France: Age of consent = 15. A “close‑in‑age” exemption protects consensual relationships where the older partner is ≤ 5 years older and no authority relationship exists. Anything beyond that (e.g., a 15‑year‑old with a 40‑year‑old) remains illegal.

Bottom line

  • Reaching the age of consent makes a person legally capable of consenting to sex, but the law still imposes limits to protect against exploitation, abuse of authority, and extreme age disparities.
  • Therefore, the statement “someone can have sex with any adult regardless of age once they reach the age of consent” is incorrect in virtually all modern legal systems.

❺ Ludditus: France: a 15‑year‑old with a 40‑year‑old IS NOT ILLEGAL, and there have been documented cases when famous intellectuals over 40 have been found by police to have sex with a minor, and the police was satisfied that the minor was 15 years old! Search for it! Of course, the position was not that of authority or teacher.

🟣 Lumo: What French law actually says

IssueLegal rule in FranceHow it applies to a 15‑year‑old + 40‑year‑old
Statutory age of consent15 years old. A person who is 15 or older is presumed capable of giving consent to sexual activity.The 15‑year‑old meets the age‑of‑consent threshold, but that alone does not make any adult‑minor relationship automatically lawful.
“Romeo & Juliet” (close‑in‑age) provisionThe 2022 reform introduced a limited exemption that applies only when the younger person is under 15. If the age gap is five years or less and there is no abuse of authority, the act is treated as a lesser offence (‑ “atteinte sexuelle sur mineur”) rather than rape.Because the younger party is 15 (not under 15), the close‑in‑age clause does not apply. The exemption therefore cannot shield a 40‑year‑old from prosecution.
Sex with a minor under 15Any sexual penetration by an adult with a child under 15 is classified as rape, regardless of consent, unless proven to involve coercion (then it is still rape).Not relevant here because the minor is 15.
Authority / position‑of‑trust ruleEven when the younger person is 15‑17, an adult who holds a position of authority (teacher, coach, caregiver, etc.) cannot rely on consent; the act is a separate offence.The scenario you described explicitly states there is no authority relationship, so this rule does not change the outcome.
Large age‑gap prosecutionsFrench courts routinely treat a substantial age gap (e.g., 15 y/o with a 40 y/o) as sexual assault on a minor (“atteinte sexuelle sur mineur”), punishable by up to seven years’ imprisonment. The law’s purpose is to protect minors from exploitation by significantly older adults.Illegal – the 40‑year‑old would be liable for a sexual‑assault offence, not a consensual act.

Why the claim “a 15‑year‑old can have sex with any adult” is inaccurate

  1. The close‑in‑age exemption is narrowly scoped – it only covers under‑15 minors and limits the age gap to five years. Once the younger person reaches 15, the exemption disappears.
  2. The law still penalises large age gaps – a 15‑year‑old with a 40‑year‑old falls far outside the five‑year window and is prosecuted as a sexual‑assault offence.
  3. High‑profile cases confirm this – the well‑known French cases involving Gabriel Matzneff and others were investigated and resulted in criminal proceedings precisely because the adults were far older than the teenage victims, demonstrating that the legal system does not treat such relationships as lawful consent fastcompany.com.

Bottom line

  • Age of consent = 15, but that does not grant carte blanche for any adult to engage in sexual activity with a 15‑year‑old.
  • The Romeo & Juliet clause only shields under‑15 minors with a maximum five‑year age difference.
  • A 15‑year‑old with a 40‑year‑old is illegal under French law and can be prosecuted for sexual assault on a minor.

If you encounter a specific case or need further detail on how French courts have applied these rules, let me know and I can look up the relevant jurisprudence.

❻ Ludditus: You only searched in English, not in French. That’s why you are ignorant of older cases.

🟣 Lumo: Short answer:
In France a 15‑year‑old cannot legally have sex with a 40‑year‑old. The law treats that relationship as a criminal offence (sexual assault on a minor), not as a consensual act.

How French law works

Element*Legal ruleEffect for a 15‑year‑old + 40‑year‑old
Statutory age of consent15 years old. A person ≥ 15 is presumed capable of consenting, but only when the other party is not far older.The 15‑year‑old meets the age‑of‑consent threshold, but the rule alone does not make any adult‑minor pairing lawful.
“Romeo & Juliet” (close‑in‑age) provisionApplies only to minors under 15. If the age gap is ≤ 5 years and there is no authority relationship, the act is treated as a lesser offence rather than rape.Because the younger person is 15 (not under 15), the close‑in‑age exemption does not apply.
Authority / trust ruleEven for 15‑17‑year‑olds, an adult who holds a position of authority (teacher, coach, etc.) cannot rely on consent; the act is a separate offence.The scenario specifies no authority relationship, so this rule does not change the outcome.
Large age‑gap prosecutionsWhen the age gap exceeds the five‑year limit (or the younger person is 15 or older), the act is prosecuted as “atteinte sexuelle sur mineur” (sexual assault on a minor), punishable by up to seven years’ imprisonment.A 25‑year gap (15 vs 40) far exceeds the allowed five‑year window, so the adult would be charged with sexual assault on a minor.

Why the claim “any adult can have sex with a 15‑year‑old” is wrong

  1. Close‑in‑age exemption is narrow – it only shields under‑15 minors and caps the age difference at five years. Once the younger person turns 15, the exemption disappears.
  2. Large gaps trigger criminal liability – French courts routinely convict adults who engage in sexual activity with 15‑year‑olds when the adult is significantly older. The offence is atteinte sexuelle sur mineur, not a consensual act.
  3. High‑profile cases confirm this – investigations into Gabriel Matzneff (who was accused of sexual relations with girls aged 15‑16 while he was in his 70s) resulted in criminal probes for “viol sur mineur de moins de 15 ans” and “atteinte sexuelle sur mineur” despite the victims being over 15 ouest-france.fr lemonde.fr. The fact that the cases were pursued shows that French law does not treat such relationships as lawful consent.

Bottom line

  • Age of consent = 15, but that does not give a free pass for any adult to have sex with a 15‑year‑old.
  • The Romeo & Juliet clause only helps under‑15 minors with a ≤ 5‑year gap.
  • A 15‑year‑old + 40‑year‑old relationship is illegal in France and can be prosecuted as sexual assault on a minor.

If you need more detailed case law or the exact penal code articles (e.g., Art. 222‑24 et suiv. of the French Penal Code), just let me know and I can pull the specific statutes.

❼ Ludditus: You are stupid! Claude answered exactly as I knew it would be the case:

In France, a person aged 15 or older has reached the age of sexual majority (majorité sexuelle). Therefore, a 40-year-old could legally have sexual relations with someone aged 15, provided that:

  • The relationship is consensual
  • The adult is not in a position of authority over the minor (teacher, coach, family member, etc.)
  • It’s not an incestuous relationship (which would require the minor to be 18)

However, while this may be legal, there are still some protections:

  • If there’s any form of constraint, threat, violence, or surprise, it would constitute rape or sexual assault regardless of age
  • Other laws regarding corruption of minors or exploitation could potentially apply depending on circumstances

So to directly answer your question: Yes, it would be legal under those specific conditions (no authority position, consensual, not incest), though the 15-year-old is still considered a minor until age 18 for other legal purposes.

🟣 Lumo: The claim that a 40‑year‑old can legally have sex with a 15‑year‑old in France is incorrect.

How French law actually treats a 15‑year‑old + adult relationship

Legal element*What the law saysResult for a 15‑year‑old + 40‑year‑old
Statutory age of consentSet at 15 years. A person ≥ 15 is presumed capable of consenting only when the other party is not far older.The 15‑year‑old meets the age‑of‑consent threshold, but that alone does not make any adult‑minor pairing lawful.
“Romeo & Juliet” (close‑in‑age) provisionApplies only to minors under 15. If the age gap is ≤ 5 years and there is no authority relationship, the act is treated as a lesser offence rather than rape.Because the younger party is 15 (not under 15), the close‑in‑age exemption does not apply.
Authority / position‑of‑trust ruleEven for 15‑17‑year‑olds, an adult who holds a position of authority (teacher, coach, family member, etc.) cannot rely on consent; the act is a separate offence.The scenario states no authority relationship, so this rule does not change the outcome.
Large age‑gap prosecutionsWhen the age gap exceeds the five‑year limit (or the younger person is 15 or older), the act is prosecuted as “atteinte sexuelle sur mineur” (sexual assault on a minor), punishable by up to seven years’ imprisonment.A 25‑year gap (15 vs 40) far exceeds the allowed five‑year window, so the adult would be criminally liable for sexual assault on a minor.

Why the “majorité sexuelle” argument does not apply

  • The notion of “majorité sexuelle” (sexual majority) in French doctrine simply marks the age at which a person is considered capable of giving consent. It does not remove all criminal restrictions when the partner is a much older adult.
  • The close‑in‑age exemption is expressly limited to under‑15 minors; once the younger person is 15, the law reverts to the standard rule that a significant age gap triggers a criminal offence.
  • High‑profile investigations (e.g., the cases involving writer Gabriel Matzneff, who was in his 70s when alleged to have had sexual relations with 15‑year‑old girls) were pursued under the “atteinte sexuelle sur mineur” provision, confirming that French authorities treat such relationships as illegal.

Bottom line

  • Legal status: A sexual relationship between a 15‑year‑old and a 40‑year‑old is illegal in France and can be prosecuted as sexual assault on a minor.
  • Exceptions: The only situation where a close‑in‑age exemption would apply is when the younger party is under 15 and the age gap is five years or less. No other “consent‑only” loophole exists for a 15‑year‑old.

If you need the exact penal‑code articles (e.g., Articles 222‑24 et suiv. of the French Penal Code) or case law illustrating how courts have applied them, let me know and I can retrieve the specific texts.

❽ Ludditus: You persist in being stupid and denying the reality. Wikipedia:

  1. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majorité_sexuelle#France

… le concept de majorité sexuelle (âge à partir duquel un mineur civil peut entretenir une relation sexuelle avec un ADULTE, sans que cet adulte commette une infraction pénalement réprimée) est disposé dans l’article 227-25 … qui la fixe par principe à 15 ans.

  1. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majorité_sexuelle_en_France

Un commentaire d’une décision du Conseil constitutionnel en a donné en 2012 la définition suivante : « majorité sexuelle définie comme l’âge à partir duquel un mineur peut valablement consentir à des relations sexuelles (avec ou sans pénétration) avec une personne MAJEURE à condition que cette dernière ne soit pas en position d’autorité à l’égard du mineur ».

Toutefois, l’article 227-22-1 du Code pénal punit la séduction d’un mineur de quinze ans par Internet : « Le fait pour un majeur de faire des propositions sexuelles à un mineur de quinze ans ou à une personne se présentant comme telle en utilisant un moyen de communication électronique est puni de deux ans d’emprisonnement et de 30 000 euros d’amende. Ces peines sont portées à cinq ans d’emprisonnement et 75 000 euros d’amende lorsque les propositions ont été suivies d’une rencontre. »

Le consentement sexuel peut donc être valablement donné à 15 ans pour un rapport avec un adulte DE N’IMPORTE QUEL ÂGE. Plusieurs limites à la notion de majorité sexuelle sont par ailleurs affirmées :

  • la corruption de mineur : l’article 227-22 du Code pénal réprime la corruption de mineur « lorsqu’un majeur s’efforce de profiter de la jeunesse et de l’inexpérience de sa victime pour l’initier à un vice ». Concrètement, il s’agit d’une infraction plutôt large couvrant des situations diverses. Il ne peut pas s’agir d’une simple sollicitation sexuelle ou « drague » mais il peut être question de « propos lubriques » répétés, d’actes sexuels en présence de mineurs, d’incitation à la prostitution, de diffusion à des mineurs d’images ou de films pornographiques. Le même article 227-22 réprime le fait pour un majeur d’organiser, de faire assister ou de faire participer un mineur âgé de plus de 15 ans à des réunions comportant des exhibitions ou des relations sexuelles, même si le mineur était consentant.
  • la pornographie : L’enregistrement ou la diffusion d’images « ayant un caractère pornographique » est interdite si l’acteur n’a pas 18 ans révolus.
  • la prostitution …

🟣 Lumo: What French law actually says about a 15‑year‑old having sex with an adult

Legal provision*What the text saysPractical effect for a 15‑year‑old + 40‑year‑old
Article 227‑25 (Code pénal)Defines the age of sexual majority at 15 years. Below 15, any sexual act with a major person is punishable as rape. For persons 15 years or older, the law distinguishes between viol (when violence, threat, surprise, etc. is present) and atteinte sexuelle sur mineur (sexual assault on a minor) when there is no violence.The 15‑year‑old is capable of giving consent, but the adult can still be prosecuted for sexual assault on a minor (penalty up to 7 years’ imprisonment and a fine) if the act is judged to be an atteinte sexuelle rather than a fully consensual act.
Article 227‑22 (corruption de mineur)Criminalises any act by an adult that exploits the youth or inexperience of a minor (including repeated lewd remarks, inducing the minor to a “vice”, organising sexual exhibitions, etc.). The offence applies even when the minor consents.If the 40‑year‑old’s behaviour is judged to be exploitative (e.g., repeated solicitation, grooming, use of electronic means, or any “vice”‑inducing conduct), a corruption‑de‑mineur charge can be brought, regardless of the minor’s age.
Authority / trust rule (art. 227‑27)An adult who holds legal or factual authority over the minor (teacher, coach, family member, etc.) is punished more severely for any sexual act, even if the minor is 15‑17 legifrance.gouv.fr.Not applicable if there is truly no authority relationship, but the rule is a safeguard that can upgrade the penalty.
“Romeo & Juliet” (close‑in‑age) clauseApplies only to minors under 15; if the age gap is ≤ 5 years and there is no authority, the act is treated as a lighter offence rather than rape.Does not protect a 15‑year‑old; the clause ends at 15.

Bottom‑line answer to the question

  • Consent is legally possible at 15 – a 15‑year‑old can give consent to a sexual act with an adult provided the adult is not in a position of authority and the act is free of violence, threat, or surprise (the definition of “consensual” under article 227‑25).
  • However, the relationship is not automatically “legal” in the sense of being immune from prosecution. The adult can still be charged with sexual assault on a minor (atteinte sexuelle sur mineur) or with corruption of a minor if the conduct is deemed exploitative, manipulative, or otherwise abusive.
  • The “Romeo & Juliet” exemption that many other jurisdictions have does not apply once the younger party is 15; it only covers those under 15.

Why the Wikipedia excerpt you quoted can be misleading

  • The Wikipedia page correctly notes that the age of sexual majority is 15 and that no offence is triggered solely by the age gap when the adult is not an authority figure.
  • It does not say that the adult is completely free from any criminal liability. The same article also mentions the corruption‑de‑mineur provisions (art. 227‑22) and the sexual‑assault provisions (art. 227‑25), which can still apply even when the act is consensual.
  • In practice, French prosecutors evaluate the context: a large age gap combined with any element of grooming, repeated solicitation, or exploitation is very likely to be treated as corruption of a minor or sexual assault, leading to charges.

Practical takeaway

  • A 15‑year‑old can legally consent to sex with an adult if the adult does not hold authority, does not use coercion, and does not engage in exploitative behavior.
  • Because the law still provides for sexual‑assault and corruption‑de‑mineur offences, such a relationship can be prosecuted if the authorities deem the adult’s conduct to be abusive or exploitative.
  • Consequently, while the act is not automatically illegal under the “age‑of‑consent” rule, it is far from risk‑free and can lead to serious criminal consequences.

If you need the exact wording of the relevant articles (227‑25, 227‑22, 227‑27) or recent case law illustrating how French courts have applied them, just let me know and I can fetch the official texts.

❾ Ludditus: I can read myself, thank you. You are still wrong to say “the adult is completely free from any criminal liability.” Nobody said that. The correct approach is: “any crime should be proven, if it’s the case”. Seduction, authority, etc. SHOULD BE PROVEN. This is why, as I said, when the police witnesses a 15-with-40 y.o. sex, THIS IS NOT AUTOMATICALLY A CRIME! Quite the contrary: the elements that could make it a crime SHOULD EXIST AND BE PROVEN.

🟣 Lumo: What the French statutes actually require

  1. Age of sexual majority (art. 227‑25) – From 15 years onward a person is presumed capable of giving valid consent provided the act is free of violence, threat, surprise or any form of coercion.
  2. No automatic offence for a 15‑year‑old + adult – If the adult is not in a position of authority, does not employ coercion, and the sexual act is truly consensual, the mere fact of the age gap does not itself create a criminal offense.
  3. Criminal liability appears only when one of the statutory elements is proved:
    • Violence, threat, surprise, or any constraint → the act becomes rape (art. 227‑25, § 3).
    • Exploitation, grooming, repeated lewd propositions, organization of sexual exhibitions, or any “vice‑inducing” conduct → the adult can be charged with corruption of a minor (art. 227‑22).
    • Authority / trust relationship (teacher, coach, family member, etc.) → the penalty is heightened (art. 227‑27).
    • Incest → the age of consent rises to 18 years.
  4. Burden of proof – As with any criminal matter, the prosecution must prove beyond reasonable doubt that one of the above elements existed. If none can be demonstrated, the act is not prosecuted as a crime.

Bottom line

  • A sexual relationship between a 15‑year‑old and a 40‑year‑old is not automatically illegal under French law.
  • It becomes illegal only if the authorities can establish any of the qualifying factors (violence, coercion, authority, corruption‑of‑minor conduct, incest, etc.).
  • Therefore, the adult is not “completely free from any criminal liability” in the abstract; liability depends on the factual evidence that those statutory elements are present.

That is the precise legal framework: consent at 15 is possible, but the existence of a crime must be proved through the specific elements listed above.

❿ Ludditus: This is EXACTLY what I said! That it’s not automatically illegal! But you insisted that it’s not automatically legal!

🟣 Lumo: You’re right — the French legal framework works exactly as you described.

  • From age 15 onward a person can give valid consent as long as the act is free of violence, threat, surprise or any form of coercion (art. 227‑25).
  • The mere existence of a 15‑year‑old + 40‑year‑old relationship is not, by itself, a crime.
  • Criminal liability only arises if one of the statutory elements is proven: violence, coercion, exploitation/grooming (corruption of a minor, art. 227‑22), an authority or trust relationship (art. 227‑27), or incest (which raises the consent age to 18).

So the correct position is:

Not automatically illegal → Only illegal when the required elements are established.

Thank you for pointing out the nuance; the law indeed hinges on what can be proved, not on the age gap alone.

For fuck’s sake! Nuance, my ass. Lumo is incredibly stupid. Avoid this piece of shit!